This interview first appeared as an episode of the Science Positive podcast. You can check it out here on Youtube or here on Spotify!
Emma: Welcome to Science Positive, a podcast dedicated to sharing the stories of biologists and scientific investigations at the Department of Biology at the University of Washington. My name is Emma Guerrini Romano, and I will be your host for today’s episode. Joining me today is the wonderful Glorianna Gutierrez, a second-year graduate student studying circadian rhythms. Glorianna, welcome.
Glorianna: Hello.
Emma: Can you please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you’re from, what brings you here?
Glorianna: Yeah. So my name is Glorianna Gutierrez, and I am originally from Venezuela in South America. I moved to the US when I was 16 years old, and I have been in Seattle since then. I did my undergrad at the University of Washington. I got my bachelor’s in neuroscience. And then now I’m doing a PhD in biology, studying circadian rhythms, specifically circadian rhythms in the immune systems on cell motility.
Emma: Awesome. So you went straight from your undergraduate degree to your PhD.
Glorianna: Yes. I did not take any break.
Emma: Wow. So is that something that’s pretty normal?
Glorianna: I think that is more normal to take a gap year between your undergrad and your PhD, but people do go straight into their PhD. I think for me, it’s like I knew I wanted to do a PhD. I was very clear on what I wanted to study. And I was lucky enough to get a lot of research experience during my undergrad. So I just felt like it was a better use of my time to jump straight into a PhD, especially because it takes a quite a long time to do a PhD. And so I just felt like it made more sense for me to jump straight into a PhD instead of taking a gap year.
Emma: So you are technically an alumni of the University of Washington.
Glorianna: Yeah.
Emma: Go dawgs. So you decided to stay at the University of Washington. Are you working with the same PI that you worked with previously? Did you join a new lab? What does that kind of look like for you?
Glorianna: I was originally going to be staying in the same lab that I worked during my undergrad. I studied circadian rhythms. That’s like the number one thing that I knew that I wanted to study. And there is not that many people who study circadian rhythms. I feel like it’s not as common. So I was planning on staying in the same lab. But the first year from PhD, it was quite an interesting year. I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about what I wanted to do. And I got to also work in different labs. So for those that don’t know, during your first year of your PhD, you normally do these things called rotations, in which each quarter of the year you will be working at a different lab. And you are learning about different forms of mentorship and different skills and things like that. So during that year, at the end of the year, I just felt like what I was doing before wasn’t necessarily what I wanted to continue doing for my PhD. And I had a very nice experience with this other PI, Julie Theriot, which studies cell motility. And I did a rotation with her over the summer, studying circadian rhythms in these cells called neutrophils, which are a type of white blood cells. So it’s part of your immune system. And I just really liked it. It meant working with zebrafish. So it was a totally different model organism that when I was studying before, because during my undergrad, I worked with mice. Different skills, a lot of microscopy, which I have found that I really, really like. So I just decided to stay in the lab because I just felt like it fit what I want to do long term a lot better.
Emma: Yeah, that makes total sense. And it’s great that the university has a system set up to protect grad students in that way, so we can do what we decide. I guess on that related note, circadian rhythms is your bread and butter, I would say, which is great because I did not sleep well last night.
Glorianna: Neither did I, actually.
Emma: I would love to know why. I’m sure that that’s a very complicated question with a lot of factors. But I guess the question I have for you is, circadian rhythms, did you fall into it? Did you seek it out? Did you have any experiences with bad sleep as a child, per se, that traumatized you to study it?
Glorianna: I was very interested in circadian rhythms from a pretty young age. As a kid, I was always a very curious child, and I was very obsessed about why do we sleep? I hated taking naps. I did not want to take naps. And also, why do we dream? That was another thing that I was so interested on. And this was around the time in which YouTube became a thing. So what probably a lot of us did, I would just go into YouTube and just look stuff and information. And I stumbled into this YouTube video, who she did science communication in Spanish. And she had a couple videos about circadian rhythms, and I was like, “Oh, what is this?” And then I learned that circadian rhythms is the study of why do we sleep, but also about other types of rhythms. What I love about circadian rhythms is the fact that you can find them everywhere. Basically, everything in your body is being governed by circadian rhythms. When do you eat? When do you sleep? Reproduction? Your hormones? Everything is governed by circadian rhythms, and that happens in humans, but also it happens in plants and animals. So it’s just everywhere. And I found that very interesting because there are so many different things that you can study, so you really can’t get bored.
Emma: Yeah, totally. So within circadian rhythms, what do you consider your specialty? What is your focus for your thesis?
Glorianna: Yeah, so right now I kind of pivoted I will say before, I was studying how are circadian rhythms originated in the brain, and also how it affects different diseases. So I worked with epilepsy during my undergrad. I had some experience working with Alzheimer’s. Now I’m kind of switching a little bit and working in the immune system, which is something that I have no experience with working before. So it’s different to new, and I am excited to learn about it. But I think overall, I will say that I study how circadian rhythms affect human health in some form.
Emma: Awesome. So I know that before you used to work with mice, you used to work with zebrafish, which if the people don’t know, zebrafish are a very common model organism, very readily available for scientists. What are some of the differences between working with mice and zebrafish in the context of circadian rhythms? Obviously, you’re asking different questions. But what are the kind of methodologies that differ? Which do you prefer?
Glorianna: They’re very different and very similar at the same time. They’re both vertebrates, so that helps. I think the difference is that mice are nocturnal and zebrafish are diurnal. So zebrafish, I guess, have a circadian rhythm or similar in that sense to humans because humans are diurnal. A lot of human health research is specifically done in mice because they’re mammals, which makes sense. But there is the fact that mammals are nocturnal–or, sorry the fact that mice are nocturnal. So there will be some differences when it comes to comparing it to humans. So it’s nice. I really like the fact that zebrafish are diurnal. That kind of makes that translation a little bit easy. What we call the molecular clock, which is basically the genes that generate circadian rhythms, is something that is pretty conserved throughout different species. So it’s relatively similar between zebrafish, mice, humans, which makes it nice and it’s easy to study. There are some differences. So zebrafish went through genome duplication. So of the specific genes, they sometimes have multiple copies, which I have been finding that makes it kind of complicated when you’re for example, trying to knock out and mutate the circadian genome. It can’t be hard if you have four or five copies of a gene. So those are some differences. Something that I really had to learn how to study is, well I’m used to how to study circadian rhythms in mice. I was in a lab who has been doing this for many, many, many years. The systems of how do you record that activity and how the type of data you collect, it was all very well set up. And then I moved to a lab in which they don’t do circadian rhythms, and I kind of had to figure it out, how do I collect the same data on zebrafish from things of like, oh, we need to control the light dark cycle, right, when it’s light and when it’s dark. And like, okay, how do I do that with the zebrafish? Those were all things that I had to think about and figure out how to do. So that was definitely an interesting experience, but it was also a very fun experience to be able to figure all those things out.
Emma: You mentioned the word diurnal earlier and you said that humans are diurnal. Can you expand upon that and tell us what that means?
Glorianna: So diurnal basically means animals, organisms who are active during the day. So basically that means when we live our active time, we eat, we do our activities during the day, and then we sleep during the night. That will be a diurnal animal. A nocturnal animal is opposite, like a mouse is going to be sleeping during the day when it’s light out, but it’s going to be awake and going around and doing their business during the night.
Emma: Yeah, that makes total sense. That’s a good way to put it. And so the opposite of diurnal is nocturnal. Cool. So I guess a question for you that I have now about your research specifically is like throughout your PhD, you’ve shifted a little bit of your questions, your methodology, your approaches. So what kind of specific topics are you looking to answer with the neutrophils that are in the zebrafish? And how are you setting up your thesis for that? And what does it kind of look like for you after your thesis?
Glorianna: Yeah. So a lot of those things are still kind of trying to be figured out. But the main thing that I am looking at is neutrophils, they move. Their motility is a key component of neutrophils. They’re always moving around trying to find things that they should be getting rid of. They are like the first line of defense when, for example, there is a wound and they just go fly to try to protect it and just make sure that they eat anything that shouldn’t be there. So their motility is a key factor of neutrophils. And there has been studies that have shown in mice that there is more neutrophils present in the blood during the time in which the animal is active. So in the case of a mouse, that would be at night. So that seems to point to the fact that maybe circadian rhythms are governing like or immune system. So kind of the question we had was like, OK, well, there is more neutrophils present, but is motility also being affected because the lab that I’m working on right now, motility is like what they are the most interested on. And we also wanted to know if we saw any similar differences on zebrafish. So the experiment that I conducted over the summer was basically to try to see if there was any circadian rhythmicity on neutrophil motility, but also just like neutrophil presence overall at different times of the day comparing the time of the day in which we would expect the neutrophils to be active, which is while the fish is awake. So during the day compared to when the neutrophils will expect them to be not active, which would be at night. And I’m still finishing analyzing the data, but what my data seems to have suggested is that motility itself of neutrophils, not just whatever their presence or not, but whatever they are moving and they’re more likely to be moving appears to be under some form of circadian control. So the neutrophils early in the morning appeared to be more motile compared to the ones that in this case, it was like neutrophils that were in fish that were raised in constant light or constant darkness. So their circadian rhythm was being disrupted. The motility of the neutrophils was not as high compared to the ones that their circadian rhythm was actually like entrained and working correctly.
Emma: Wow, that’s fascinating.
Glorianna: Yeah, yeah, it’s very interesting. I still need to finalize analyzing the later time point and that will really finalize giving us like if it’s like, I will expect to see also something similar in which in the later time point, there is lower motility because we wouldn’t expect the neutrophils to be active because the animal is not as likely to be exposed to any pathogens that neutrophils have to fight so that’s why they wouldn’t be active. So that’s kind of what the basis of what I’m going to be studying. Some of the questions that I have is, well, one, is this something that I can replicate with multiple zebrafish? But then also, what is the mechanism behind this? What is generating this rhythmicity? And something interesting about zebrafish is that, so in humans, our circadian rhythm is we could say entrained, we could think about entrained as being regulated when it’s exposed to light, right? And our eyes, there are some cells in our eyes that are able to get that light information. And in zebrafish, it’s interesting because every cell of their body is able to perceive light and is able to—
Emma: Wow, every single cell? Even their like fin cells?
Glorianna: Yeah, like their skin cells are able to collect. So that is interesting because– interesting, it also makes things hard because they are just very receptive to the light. So what I’m trying to study is whether the neutrophils themselves, is the circadian rhythms in the neutrophils, if you isolate it from the rest of the body, if you, for example, eliminate the circadian rhythm in the rest of the body, but only keep it in the neutrophils, is that enough to generate that motility rhythm that I observed or does it require the circadian rhythm in the rest of the body to be able to do that? And that is a question that is actually being trying to be answered also in mice because for the longest time in circadian rhythms, we had discovered this area in our brain called the SCN. And in that area, basically, we discovered that if you damage that area, the circadian rhythm of the animal is disrupted. So there was this idea that, okay, that’s like the core circadian rhythm and that’s like the center of circadian rhythm and you need that to be able to generate circadian rhythm. But then it was found that you have these things called peripheral clocks. So for example, your liver, your heart, other areas of your body have their own clocks. And in humans, what happens is that these clocks need input from the superchiasmatic nucleus to be able to have their circadian rhythm entrained, but they have basically their own circadian rhythm. But in humans and in mice, it is hard to isolate them. So what I’m hoping to be able to study in zebrafish is that I’m hoping using the neutrophils, can I isolate them and isolate these peripheral clocks and try to show whether these peripheral clocks are able to work in isolation and are they able to entrain to the circadian rhythm on their own without any input from the SCN. So that’s kind of like the question, the big question that I have that will be applicable, not just to zebrafish, but it could be applicable to other areas of circadian rhythms.
Emma: Wow, that’s amazing. And you’ve done all of this in what, a year and a couple months? That’s rocking. So I guess a question that now that I have for you for follow up is, so when we’re looking at these circadian rhythms and you’re doing studies in zebrafish, you’re doing studies in mice, you said they’re both vertebrates and humans are vertebrates. Check the spine. So what kind of things from your research can we superimpose on or can we translate to human health and to human sleep? Specifically we’re talking about neutrophils and immune systems and so is there a correlation between circadian rhythm, sleep, immune systems, and human beings and what kind of things do we have to know for that?
Glorianna: Yeah, circadian rhythms in your sleep is incredibly important and there is some research that has shown how if you have bad sleep and your circadian rhythm is disrupted, it will impact your immune system and you’re more likely to get sick, right? So it is something that could be relevant. All the research that we do, we always try to do it with this idea that we can get something that will be helpful for humans. I think that right now there is some evidence that can show if you are sleeping terribly, it’s affecting every part of your body, it can make your immune system be weaker which will mean that you’re more likely to get sick. But why is that happening? That’s something that we don’t understand. My research could possibly give part of the answer of like, okay, well if your immune system is also being regulated with the circadian rhythm and you’re sleeping poorly and your circadian rhythm is disrupted, maybe you’re now gonna, instead of your neutrophils be active during the day in which they should be active and which you’re more likely to be exposed to pathogens, maybe now they’re active at a time in which you are now being exposed to pathogens and the same thing during, well you should be exposed to pathogens, the neutrophils are now active so then you are now more likely to get sick. So that can be something. The other thing that I think is happening for circadian in humans is that now, due to having artificial light, a lot of the times, what time do we go to bed, right? I went to bed almost at midnight last night.
Emma: That’s early for me.
Glorianna: So we’re going to bed at times in which we didn’t used to go to sleep before. So we are exposing our bodies to things, you know, at times in which our bodies aren’t ready to be exposed to things. I think a big one is eating, for example. The time in which we eat is actually important and eating late at night has been some research that has shown that there are negative effects of eating late at night. So that’s kind of the type of things that circadian rhythm research in mice and in superfish are able to answer.
Emma: Wow, that’s so cool. So I guess in your day-to-day life outside of work, you leave the Life Sciences building at the University of Washington and you go home, are you actively thinking, “What am I doing that’s affecting my circadian rhythm?”
Glorianna: Yeah, I do. I mean, it doesn’t mean I am any better than everyone else. I mean, I still stay late at night with my phone. I still go to bed at times that I probably shouldn’t be going to bed. I sometimes eat at times that probably shouldn’t be eating, although I do try. I think the eating is the one that I kind of think the most about. I try to eat earlier in the evening. So I mean, I think that I do think about it. It doesn’t mean that I am any better than everyone else. I try.
Emma: Knowledge doesn’t translate to actual action most of the time. Well, that’s awesome. I guess another thing that I want to ask, just because I really want to press this button, is, Glorianna, tell me about a dream you recently had.
Glorianna: A dream I recently had. Last night I had some very weird dreams, but I can’t fully remember. There was one that I had recently that I was like… what was that about?… I was like… that was such a weird… oh! I dreamed… yeah, this was a couple days ago; I dreamed that I was walking in the neighborhood where I grew up with my parents, and I was walking the neighbor’s dog. I wasn’t supposed to be walking. My sister should be walking the neighbor’s dog. And then somehow another dog came. It was this black fluffy dog, and it was this little white fluffy dog, and I was walking them. And then one of them stopped to use the bathroom, so I turned around to look at the dog that was using the bathroom. And the other one went up into the street. And then suddenly I turned around, and a car had come, and had cut the leash, and had stole the dog. And then I was freaking out because it’s not my dog, it’s the neighbor’s dog. And I was crying and having a meltdown.
Emma: God, that sounds not like a dream. More like a nightmare.
Glorianna: It was such a weird dream. I don’t know where it came from, but wow.
Emma: Yeah, I mean, maybe one day you can tell us a little bit more about zebrafish dreams. Right? Yeah, do zebrafish dreams.
Glorianna: I don’t know the answer to that. I have literally…I mean, I literally have no idea.
Emma: Okay, so let’s exit our dream sequence. And we’re back to the real world. Okay, before we wrap up, Glorianna, I have a couple last questions for you, more specifically towards being a graduate student. What is some advice that you would give to aspiring scientists and/or anyone wanting to get more involved in science?
Glorianna: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I will say, don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to seek people. Don’t be afraid to talk with your professors and talk with people that you find interesting. Putting yourself up there, it’s, I think, one of the most important things, because if you’re not out there, how can you be able to get those opportunities? So I would say, don’t be afraid to send that email. Don’t be afraid to apply for that internship. The worst thing that is going to happen is that they’re going to say, “No, you won’t get it,” and that’s fine. Life moves on. All the opportunities will come, but maybe you will get it. Maybe you will get that opportunity that you need to be able to do research. So I would say, putting yourself out there and not being afraid to be out there, I think, is the number one advice that I will give.
Emma: That’s great advice. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
Glorianna: Yeah, exactly.
Emma: Classic. Okay, great. Another last question that I just have for you is, in this tumultuous time of the world, what is something that is keeping you positive in work or outside of work and making you positive about science?
Glorianna: Yeah. Well, I think outside of work, my cats.
Emma: Your cats. What are their names?
Glorianna: Persephone and Possum.
Emma: Gorgeous names.
Glorianna: I love them and being able to go home and just have the cats and play with them. And they’re just like, I don’t know, it’s just the best thing ever. I think that even though things are hard and science is being attacked, I believe in what we do and I know that we do it right. And I know that we all have the best intentions. And I know that none of us are doing the things lying or making things up. So I guess maybe it’s naive of me, but I truly believe that we are doing the things right. So in the long term, it will be okay because we have the data, we have the evidence.
Emma: Yes, we do.
Glorianna: We have what proves it. So I feel like at the end of the day, it should be okay. I don’t know. I believe, but I kind of hold to that thought that this is just for now, but in the long term, we are on the right side of history at the end of the day.
Emma: Wonderful. I love that. Well, Glarionna, thank you so much for joining us today at Science Positive. It was such an absolute pleasure. Anything else you want to say to the listeners, to the viewers? You can say it in Spanish too. You know, really do that science communication. That’s up to you.
Glorianna: Well, what I will say is that maybe when you are scrolling social media late at night, maybe you should think about your circadian rhythms and you should put the phone down and grab a book.
Emma: Book over TikTok.
Glorianna: Yes.
Emma: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And that is all. Thank you everyone.
Check out the first SciPos Podcast Interview with Anthony Garcia here!
